GAF - Interview with Camden County College

Interview with Camden County College

GAF: Camden County College is already well known for its excellent communications program, especially in Radio Communications.

Prof. Owens: Are we? [Laughs]

GAF: Well, at least back when I was in college, it was. Has this changed?

Elaine: Honestly? We don't know. We're in our own little world here. We don't keep up with majors outside of what we teach. [All laugh]

GAF: I see. Well, do you hope that Camden County College will now grow in recognition for its computer science abilities, especially with the addition of the Associate's Degree in Video Game Design?

Prof. Owens: If you look back at our program, we already have an excellent computer animation program; and we're also, as far as I know, going to be the first school in the nation to offer the two-year degree in video game design. We were also the first school in New Jersey, seven years ago, to offer a degree in computer imaging.

We had problems finding books for students in computer imaging, and I was working with a publisher on trying to rectify that. Well, as it turns out, one of our instructors had just graduated with her Master's Degree in Computer Imaging at Rowan [University], and within a week they called her up and signed her to a book publishing deal. She also runs her own video imaging company called Vibe. She may actually have three more book deals coming from this, as well.

GAF: Creative writing courses are part of the curriculum for the video game design major. Is this so students can be made aware that good stories, character development, and scripts are integral parts of good game design?

Prof. Owens: Exactly. We have the creative writing component added into our video imaging courses, which really helped the students, and we've added that same component into our game design course.

In fact, Tim's going to be teaching a class in the fall called Digital Storytelling. Tim, do you want to talk a little about that?

Tim: I'm still getting feedback from companies right now; but in a nutshell what we're going to have is storytelling on the cinematic/movie level, and the gaming level.

GAF: And is there really much difference between them in your mind?

Tim: In some degree, yes. Because you have to remember, that even though you have a general story...

Elaine: It's linear [in movies].

Tim: Yes. In movies you go from point A to point B, but in games it can branch out. There're different avenues to take in games. Different worlds, different paths, actions of the players can change the world, etc. And we need to teach our students to think along those lines.

I'm hoping to get from a gaming company an old, old storyboard to use as a reference. To show students how they branched everything out. To show my students that they didn't just think, "Well, let's just do this", but that a lot of thought went into it.

GAF: You'd be surprised with some of the games out there.... [All laugh]

Elaine: It's just like how writing for the web is different than writing for print; non-linear and linear writing are totally different. And I think that once students understand that the interactive component makes it more difficult to write, I think that it will help them in terms of coming up with plots [for their games].

GAF: So are students going to be able to work on one particular area in your courses (level design, 3D art, 2D art, scripting, AI design, sound, coding, the person who goes and gets John Carmak's coffee, etc.), or are you going for more of a well-rounded approach, where they can continue on where they are stronger/more comfortable at a later time?

Prof. Owens: We're going to go with more of a well rounding. Students will find that out in the first class, Game Design and Development I; where they will find out all the different components, analyzing games, documentation, etc. When they get to level II [in Game Design and Development] they'll modify existing games, based on what they are comfortable with. Hopefully they'll find their niche while doing so.

Elaine: That's one of our big successes in other areas as well, computer animation, for example. We allow the students to have a hands-on in everything involved. They may have come in wanting to do video, but find that they are really good at the animation aspect. Would they have known that if they didn't get the chance to try? Probably not. A lot of people get into multimedia don't know everything that is involved in multimedia; and by giving them that hands on opportunity, it gives the students more to work with and decide from. We think it really helps.

Prof. Owens: Another thing that we do is constantly invite high schools, and have them sit in on a class. Elaine has done it. We have the high school students team up with our students for a project; and our students end up exchanging emails and numbers with the high school students. I think it's really important to bring the younger students in so they can get a feel for what they'll be able to do should they come to us.

GAF: You mentioned you've been getting inquiries from willing students from as far away as the West Coast.

Prof. Owens: They want to know if we have dorms. [All laugh] They ask to come and visit our dorms, and I'm like, "Dorms? What dorms?"

GAF: Well, there is the apartment complex right behind the college... But do you expect to continue hearing such inquiries, and are you happy to hear such inquiries?

Prof. Owens: Oh, it's fantastic! It just shows that all the research I did paid off. And it showed me that, yes, this was the right thing to do.

Elaine: And I think you were trying to bring it here, to the East Coast, for the people in this area; not knowing it was going to get so big.

Prof. Owens: Not only is it going to help the institution, it's going to help the industry.

Elaine: It's funny, we got a call, and [whoever it was] left a message, but the people didn't say where they were from. There was an area code we had never seen, and we kept asking, "Where is that?" So the first thing [Professor Owens] said when she called them back was, "Where are you?" And they were in Ohio! And I heard her say, "Do you realize we're in New Jersey?" [Laughs]

Prof. Owens: [Laughs] No, but seriously, they're willing to come out here. I mean, what was that school that has an eighteen-month program, a certificate program that cost almost $38,000?

Elaine: I can't remember the name of it.

GAF: That's what Google is for. [And, following my own advice, I found the program in which they were speaking; the course was at Southern Methodist University at a cost of $37,000 for a certificate in 18 months.]

Elaine: Someone had sent me the article, and I would just keep looking at it, saying to myself, "What am I missing here? Because it's only 18 months, and it's this much money; how can this possibly be?"

GAF: Almost sounds like trying to milk the potential students, if you ask me.

Prof. Owens: After seeing the article, some people asked me why I didn't raise tuition costs for the program, or raise lab fees. But I won't do that. One thing I really like about this school is that they keep it affordable, and keep it affordable for everyone. Students will get a top-notch education here, without going broke trying to do it.

GAF: So you're very into affordable education?

Prof. Owens: Yes. [We shake hands.] Also the materials, as well; like the books. We really look at the price of the books. It appears that some places don't look at the cost of books, but just see the title and go with it. But I like to ask if we really need a $60 book, is there something with the same information for a little cheaper?

Tim: You know, some of the students have asked, and I was curious myself, is there any way we can take this past two years? I know we're just a two year college, and that's the edict from the Grand Marshals From AboveÔ , but...

Prof. Owens: Well, this degree is 70 credits, and I got a lot of flack for that. "Can you trim that? It's too many credits." I said no. It's got to be 70 credits.

Tim: It's getting pretty bare bones at 70 credits as it is.

Prof. Owens: Yeah.

GAF: What's the normal amount of credits for an Associate's Degree from Camden County College?

Prof. Owens: 62, 63...65 is kind of pushing it. But I went to 70, because again, they needed the creative writing class, they needed the intro to lit, they needed the three levels of gaming, three levels of animation, they needed the multimedia [classes]; so they needed all that.

I think I can cut the gym. [All laugh]

GAF: Yeah, I don't think Phys. Ed. Is all that necessary for this degree.

Prof. Owens: [Laughing] Yeah, I think I can cut two credits with the gym...they can get their workout typing away on the computers.

Elaine: The beautiful thing about this is that we already had a great animation program. Our multimedia program is strong. Our computer studies area is ranked really high. We really already had the components to make a successful game design program.

GAF: So how are you going to try and immerse the students in gaming, beyond just the courses?

Prof. Owens: One of our students works at Game Crazy, and he's going to help us out by getting us posters and such. Also, this summer Tim is going to do this huge mural on the computer lab's wall; filled with gaming characters.

GAF: Like Mario, Sonic, etc. You will be in game-world at that point.

Prof. Owens: Yes.

Elaine: Can't forget Pac-Man and those little balls...

GAF: And then there's the new Pac-Man game coming out. [Elaine gives a semi-groan of excitement and fear at the same time] You have heard of it, right?

Elaine: I don't even want to know... I don't even want to think about it; I have to stay away....

GAF: Yes, yes you do. You know it.

Prof. Owens: She is like... Elaine gets this, face, when she plays games. A face like, "Don't bother me!" And her kids are like "Mommy! Mommy!" And she's like, "Get away!" [All laughing]

Elaine: When we were setting up for the board meeting, [Professor Owens was saying] "You can't play Elaine! You can't play!" And I was saying, "I'm almost around the corner, I'm almost to the end!" I hate it when I get like that.

GAF: That happened to me before my friends' Christmas show, where I play Santa Clause, which we've done for the past three years. I had my PS2 in my car--since I play video games at my second job all night--

Elaine: That's on tape, you know.

GAF: Like my boss doesn't know. He's seen me taking my TV, PS2, Xbox and GameCube down in the morning. He'd rather I do that than fall asleep. So I had Grand Theft Auto Vice City with me, and we were a few hours early, so I started playing. And they couldn't get me off the thing until the first people were pulling up. But, dammit, Santa Clause plays video games too!

Elaine: Oh my God! That is exactly like me!

GAF: Well, if a game is good it can do that to me. If it's bad, I can walk away.

Elaine: I can't say I've ever walked away...

Prof. Owens: So you could be part of our focus group?

GAF: I wouldn't mind.

Tim: Elaine's really into Disney and all that for her kids...

Prof. Owens: Her kids?

Tim: Ok, both her and her kids. But I had brought in my PS2 and put in Kingdom Hearts for her to try. She hadn't ever played it, or played any game with vibration. When she hit something and the controller vibrated, she almost dropped it. She was saying, "This is so cool!" Now her wish list is to get a PS2.

GAF: My only thing with that game is how difficult it is. People think it is a kid's game. Nope. Way too hard for a kid's game.

Elaine: SHHH! I told my husband, "We're getting it for the kids"! [All laugh] Plus, this could be an extra DVD player, and we need that.

GAF: Well, onto the most important question: Are you gamers yourselves?

Prof. Owens: Yes. You have to be. I'm not as bad as Elaine... [All laugh] But yes. But, I don't just play the games to play them, really. I enjoy seeing how they are put together. I pick them apart. And I think that's really important for our students to do as well. I want my students to say, "Did you see that animation? Look at how they designed this level. Look at that texture!" I think Elaine sees them in much the same way.

Elaine: Yeah, well, you know. I have to admit that I don't see some textures because I'm too busy trying to get past the part I'm in. And [Professor Owens] is like, "Did you see that texture?" I'm like, "No." [All laugh] She looks at it from a totally different element. She's looking at the textures and the design, and I just want to beat the game!

Tim: And that really enforces some things in our classes, mainly Game Development and Design I, where they play the games. Because through their reactions, you can see who is going to be the designer, who is going to be the animator, who is going to be the sound person, who is going to be the coder, who is going to be the play-tester, etc.

It's the same in my animation classes. I can see who is going to be the cinematographer, the modeler, and the animators. Their strengths surface while the students take the course. They'll say, "I prefer doing this, I prefer doing that, etc." And that's why I want them to develop teams, because their strengths will come out during the course of the semester; and I want them to be able to develop those strengths while helping out the others on the team at the same time.

GAF: So you want them to build upon their strengths and help where others are weaker in those areas in the teams?

Tim: Yes. It's good to be well rounded, because people will hire you for that, but after they hire someone, they'll see their strengths and want to go with those strengths.

Prof. Owens: I think that's another reason why our programs [at Camden County College] are so good. We work off of each other's strengths, in our faculty, and help each other to get what needs to be done, done right.

GAF: Always a good thing. But, since you have mentioned you do game, what type of gamer are you, mostly? Console or PC?

Prof. Owens: I'm looking at it in a different light than Elaine or Tim, or you. But I play both PC games and console games.

Elaine: I'm more of a PC gamer, myself. But that's more because I wasn't allowed to buy a PS2 or another console... [All laugh] So I just had to gravitate. I have stuff like Frogger on my Palm, but for the most part I play my games on the PC.

GAF: So we can expect to see you on Counter-Strike, Unreal Tournament, or other games like that fragging people and saying how much you 0wnz0r and such?

Elaine: [Laughs]

Prof. Owens: But, you see, Elaine is never going to go home, because not only are we going to have two computers on the desks; but we're going to have PlayStation 2 consoles, Xboxes, GameCubes, all that stuff. So we have to lock it up, and her husband has already called and said, "You do not give her the key!"

Elaine: He's already said he's going to wring my neck. [Laughs] It's started again. Now I have an excuse, though. I used to play games when I was supposed to be working, now...

Prof. Owens: She said, "But, Jeff! It's part of my job now!" [All laugh]

Tim: Well, I just got into the newer console gaming, myself. I went out and bought a PS2 for Final Fantasy X. And, you know what? I can't figure out how to get past the first part. I can't even figure out how to save! I don't care about beating the monster, Sin; I just want to be able to save the game! [All laugh] But I'm more from the 80's. Frogger, Asteroids, Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, that sort of stuff.

I went over to my brother's house. He just got himself an HDTV, and he set up his Xbox and stuff. He was going to 'show me' Enter the Matrix, but then he got 'lost in' the game, so I didn't get to see much of it. He said, "Isn't this great?" And I said, "I haven't seen either movie yet." "But it's just like that scene..." "I haven't seen the movie yet."

GAF: Well, Professor Owens, Elaine, And Tim, this has been great. Thank you for this time, we got a lot of really good and interesting info on what is going to be going on here.

At this point, we moved down the hall to the other computer lab to talk with Neil Kleinman, Dean of the College of Media and Communication at The University of the Arts; and Chris Garvin, Director of the Multimedia Department, College of Media and Communication at The University of the Arts.

I didn't really have any real questions for them, since I was unaware that I'd get the chance to speak with these gentlemen. So I asked what I thought was appropriate, and they gave some very interesting information on the Bachelor's of Fine Arts degree that the University of the Arts is doing in video game design as a minor. Mostly, I just let them explain to me what they felt was some good info for our readers, and possible potential students.

GAF: So, is the University of the Arts hoping that some sort of articulation agreement will come out of your meeting today?

Neil Kleinman: Well, we haven't gotten that far yet. But, I will say we are eager to work with community colleges, Camden County College specifically, but generally all smaller colleges. We've found that places like Camden County College are developing new and cutting edge programs. What is interesting is that institutions like ours--four-year institutions--have traditionally had, for any number of reasons, difficulty in re-engineering their curriculum rapidly enough to keep up with new and emerging fields; especially in areas like multimedia and communications.

GAF: Fairly newer areas of study.

Neil: Exactly. And so, what interests us is that there are not many places that are teaching areas like these, especially in high schools, where we find that there are very few schools teaching any sort of multimedia, or any new media. What excited us about [the new video game design major, as well as other computer-oriented classes, at Camden County College] was the opportunity to get to work with students who have had previous learning in these fields.

Chris Garvin: And this is exciting for us. We've had a four-year multimedia program for five years now. Our program is very open ended. Besides the fact that multimedia is what it is today, and with how it can change in the next ten years, I don't know what it's going to entail; so the [multimedia] curriculum [at the University of the Arts] is based quite differently than most traditional art school programs. In those other programs, they tell you "When you leave here, you will be X. You will be this kind of graphic designer. You will make this kind of film. Etc." My program, on the other hand, gives them a wide variety of skills at the lower end (years one and two), and at the top end (years three and four) will allow them to configure their own path.

So my first two years is a lot like boot camp, and my last two years is a lot like graduate school. This allows them to really find and build upon their strengths, while still giving them a very good base of general knowledge in the overall fields of multimedia design and technology.

In our students' final year, they'll be very self-directed. They'll have their own digital prototypes, gallery work, etc.

In educating students in this way, there were a lot of things we were able to do that allowed us to take advantage of sound, text, interactivity, as well as collaboration [between students]. Two things really helped us: Web design, and game design. These two programs allowed us to deal with all of those advantages, and allowed us to give students basic fundamentals and processes in how to deal with strategic thinking and how they would integrate all of these things together to come up with a final product.

Through our curriculum, in our sophomore year, we are already teaching a lot of Web design and game design, because it's a great way to show, for example, "How does this image integrate with this text?" And that's a major component. How one gets from one screen to the next screen changes the interactivity of the projects. These kinds of basics, which happen in all the multimedia industries, are really big selling points in both Web design and game design. So that's what our teaching focuses on.

Now that we've had a couple of graduating classes, we've been able to see where the students go with what they've learned. We see that a lot of them are doing electronic music, and kind of just build things, like circuit boards, new instrumentation; and a lot of them make games. What we've done is try to solidify some of the paths these students have taken, and turn them into minors at the University of the Arts. This allows our current students to focus on these minors, and have it on their transcripts.

A good analogy is: We built a big lawn. We saw where people walked. So we made paths for them to follow.

Also, a lot of my best students have been transfer students. Transfer students tend to do really well in these types of programs; so I'm really excited that we may set something up with Camden County College in the game design aspect.

Neil: Another thing we have, in the college, two other programs that can work well with video game design. One of them is writing for television, and the other is in communications as a sub-track of advertising. This particular curriculum, the game design, we see as having a real connection both in terms of writing for television--we also have a minor called Web Drama--and obviously advertising on the Web is increasingly trying to taking advantage of the interactivity of games.

GAF: And, if you look at some of the more popular games recently, like Grand Theft Auto Vice City, you see that the games are very heavily driven by story and well written stories. They even have Hollywood actors in Vice City, like Ray Liota, Burt Reynolds, and others. So the learning how to write for television can really help in regard to writing game scripts.

Neil: Absolutely. Some of the game engines, now, are being driven by narrative structures, and are being translated out of the game model, into things like online Web drama and such. So we can see a bridging of the gap between the Web and game design, as well as bridging the gap between games and Hollywood.

Chris: One of the things we thought we could add to a game design curriculum, what our minor focuses on, is we have quite a bit of extensive training in things like interactive programming; and then we have a sister programming focusing on television writing. So we actually built our minor on the person that's going to be able to do a narrative game; be able to write in languages as high as Java, C++, lingo, Flash for the Web, those kinds of things.

We're focusing on getting them to be able to write some engines, and to be able to prototype them. Obviously, not get them to shrink-wrap release level, but to have something they can demo or pitch to gaming companies in the hopes of getting employment after graduation. And we want them to have a very solid narrative structure behind it. Because, as you said, the most popular game titles from the past few years have been very story driven.

Another side of that is they can also then go out and possibly make a movie about it. Our head of writing for television gave us this amazing stat: that out of the 200 [major motion picture studio] films that will be released this year, 135 are either based off of video games, comic books, television shows, or remakes of older movies. Every year, there are around 200 movies released, but there are around 2000 optioned for production. They're re-mediating older material and rewriting them for new media, so we think there's a niche there that we can really be strong in.

GAF: Do you feel that since art is a much more inspirationally driven field, that schools like the University of the Arts have an easier time adapting to new forms of media and placing them in their curriculum?

Neil: Actually, that can work against us, too. We were talking about it on the way here, and we talk about this all the time since we live at an art university. Chris grew up out of an art education, so he knows it from the inside out.

Chris: I'm kind of like a pariah kind of person, I was trained as a painter; then went to New York and became a designer and a creative director. Instead of art conservatories, I went to large universities that had strong art programs in them, so I made use of that.

But I think what Neil's getting to, is that especially at the conservatory/small level art schools, tend to be very narrowly focused. They tend to do one thing and do it amazingly well. Whereas larger universities, part of their mission is to explore; to look for what's new, and to bend themselves around it. We're the University of the Arts that grew out of a small art conservatory.

Neil: We are the University of the Arts that grew out of the old industrial school of the museum. We were frowned upon, and were very much at odds with the Pennsylvania Fine Arts Academy. There was the Pennsylvania Fine Arts Academy, and then here we were, this grungy environment where they were teaching people to live in the new technologies of the late 19^th Century. Over the years, like all places, people sort of polish themselves up and we are now a full-fledged art institution.

Years ago, the University of the Arts offered advertising. They got rid of it because it appeared too crass and commercial for a fine arts academy. We're bringing it back into our curriculum.

But, the thing about game design is that it is both a creative and expressive environment; but it is also a very commercial and dramatic and its very much involved in getting the audience to participate. Lots of art expects the viewer to come to the art on the terms of the artist, rather than involve the artist on a level of equal participation. What we're trying to do is create programs where the person viewing/utilizing the art is, in some degrees, on an equal footing with the creators. That view is both commercial, but is also at odds with a tradition of fine arts.

Chris: You can see this in the form of some of the guest speakers we've had over the past couple of years. We've had Eric Zimmerman, who is a widely acclaimed game designer, mostly in games for the Web; but he comes from an art tradition. He shows work at galleries, but he also started his own game design company. It's an East Coast game design company, which deals in a slightly different model than just selling the games to a game company. He has his studio develop the games, themselves.

We also had Sean Carton, from an advertising agency in Baltimore come up, and they use games as an add-on tool for their clients. So we really think that it kind of exists in both worlds, and that's why it's fun. That's why it's interesting. My students and I like to think of these new technologies as timely, fun, and exciting. They make it fun to just get your hands in there, and get dirty.

That's why I like multimedia, because there aren't any set answers. I think if there were, and I was just teaching students real easy things, that it wouldn't be as much fun to be a teacher. And I don't think it would be as much fun to be a student.

Neil: One of the other things we have developed is a bridge between the music department of the University of the Arts. We envision the possibility of the game design program really being able to take advantage of really first-rate jazz composers and electronic music composers.

Chris: Yeah, our music department is a nationally recognized jazz conservatory.

GAF: You don't see a lot of good jazz in video games. Not enough jazz in games for my tastes. And I'm being serious here. I love good, old fashioned, true jazz music.

Chris: This is the good thing then... They're just starting out and it's a growing composition track, digital technology and composition. So we've started an E-Music minor as well. A lot of those students are also interested in writing music for video games as well.

My students tend to be aggressive kids. If my students need actors, they go to the theater department. If they need musicians, they go to the music department. Which is the great thing about things with the gaming community--both the gamers and the game designers--it's a very community based feel, very collaborative. I think our kids have the chutzpah to do that.

GAF: You're going to make me spell that, you know, all italics and everything. And there's like million ways to spell it.

Chris: You might be able to spell it.

Neil: It can be spelled any number of ways. [All laugh]

GAF: Well, Dean Kleinman, Mr. Garvin, Thank you both for your time, and for all the info you've shared with us.

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